From Junkie to Judge - The Mary Beth O'Connor Story

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Music.

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Welcome to destiny is debatable a podcast and movement that will encourage you

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to build your life into the one you want,

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here's your host a guy who's great at hearing but terrible at listening john

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grimes hey hey and howdy howdy welcome back thanks for tuning in subscribing

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and supporting the podcast experience Our guest for this episode is Mary Beth O'Connor.

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She's the author of a memoir, From Junkie to Judge.

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Which chronicles her time as a child in an abusive life,

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basically, for many, many years and how that went into over 20 years of some

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pretty serious drug abuse and

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what she did to get out of that and to go on and become a federal judge.

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Judge and basically her path through that and what recovery was like.

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And now she works with recovery organizations to help people that were like her back in those days.

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Hey, Mary Beth, thanks for stopping by. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

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I can't think of anybody that's more fitting of the term destiny is debatable.

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After reading your book, which is called From Junkie to Judge,

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Mary Beth, wow, what a story. is probably the best way I know to start.

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Yeah, and I try to use the story to be of use at this point, right?

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And tell sort of the whole arc of it because the subtitle is One Woman's Triumph

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Over Trauma and Addiction.

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And part of what I like to sort of make sure people understand is that connection

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between trauma and substance use, pain and substance use, attempts to sort of

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self-medicate and manage your

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emotions to substance use because that was definitely the trigger for me.

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Yeah, and after reading your book, as I mentioned, it is pretty amazing.

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But before we get too far into that, Mary Beth, I have some wacky kind of get

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to know you questions that I am contractually obligated by my audience to ask you.

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What is your favorite band or type of music?

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My favorite band would be sort of classic rock, although I was a punk girl in

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college in the, you know, in the early 80s. So I listen to a variety,

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but I must admit I haven't kept up with most of the modern music.

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Yeah, well, there should be enough classic stations and things out there to

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keep you locked into that kind of stuff, right?

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So like 60s, 70s, 80s, what's a general decade there for you?

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I'd say 60s, 70s and into the mid 80s, yeah. Okay, cool. Cool.

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You're an author, which I assume makes you somewhat of a reader.

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Do you have a favorite author or type of book that you like to read?

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I read a wide variety of nonfiction, as well as novels and memoir,

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of course, because if you're going to write a memoir, you really ought to have read some memoir.

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So it's a pretty wide variety. And I try to mix it up. If I read a nonfiction,

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next I'll read a novel, you know, so I try to keep a good variety going. going.

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Okay. If you could time travel any to any place in time, where would it be?

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And what do you think you'd do?

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You know, I think it would have been very interesting to be part of the women's

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movement in the in the 60s. That would be a place that I would find intellectually stimulating.

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I really feel like you have an opportunity to participate in something important.

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And finally, what advice would you give your 19-year-old self?

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I would try to reassure her that actually the path she's on,

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she can break it at any point.

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She doesn't have to wait until she's 32, which is what she ultimately did.

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But really, I would try to find a way to encourage her to seek the help that

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she desperately, desperately needed. Do you think she would listen to you?

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No. I don't know that I could have believed it. You know, it was such a deep, dark place.

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I don't know that I could have believed it, but it would depend on who it was coming from, I guess.

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If I came as a stranger telling her, no, I'm sure she would have looked at me like I was outrageous.

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If I was someone in her life, then perhaps.

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Okay, well, that's all the hard-hitting questions.

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Okay, so let's start with, I guess, your story. And really, the only way I know

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how to start it, Mary Beth, is what happened? Like, how did this start?

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Yeah, I mean, it really didn't start well, even when I was in the womb.

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My mother was an unwed Irish Catholic mother in 1961, which was a really big deal.

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And because of that, I actually didn't live with her for the first six months. I was left at a convent.

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And then later, I was left for three years with a great-grandmother. my

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mother could be violent but mostly she just

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wasn't interested in me there was no real you know

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motherly bond no real connection and that

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created a sort of a sense of being alone knowing

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that i was on my own and then when i was nine she married my stepfather who

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was very violent with her and physically and sexually violent with me and then

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things just sort of escalated downward from there yeah there are some some shocking

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details in the book about that but we don't have to get into all those,

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but how do you explain your mom?

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What was your mom's role in your life as you saw it?

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I mean, her role in my life really was more on the periphery.

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I did, when I was younger, try to bond and connect with her.

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I tried to grab her attention.

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I tried to grab her interest, but I was always failing.

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And she was really more focused on making sure that my sister sister and I,

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you know, looked pretty and dressed nice and that there was this outward appearance,

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but she wasn't interested in engaging.

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And so after a while, I really sort of gave up on that.

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And then later when things got bad with my stepfather, I knew I couldn't turn to her.

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Plus he was violent with her and she wasn't stopping it.

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And so it was really a feeling of being on my own, but also as the oldest of

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the siblings feeling a need to protect the younger ones because my mother wasn't going to do it.

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Who did you look to for guidance or who did you look up to if it wasn't your

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mom or your stepfather or other people that were close to you?

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I mean, the one place I always had was school. I had always done really well in school.

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I got a lot of positive attention from teachers, a lot of special attention

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that the other students didn't get.

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And so I still have very clear memories of my teachers,

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especially in grade school, not just, you know, their names,

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but what they look like and different, different engagements I had with them,

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different times that they picked me out and, and let me do something sort of beyond my grade level.

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So school was really my place where I felt seen.

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Do you remember the incident or the situation you were in where drugs all of

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a sudden were available? No.

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Yes, definitely. My first drug was alcohol and it was Boone's Farm Strawberry

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Hill Wine, which is a lot of people are familiar with.

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I was 12 and my girlfriend stole it from her sister and she rode it over on

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her banana seat bicycle.

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And we actually drank it out of Flintstones glasses that used to have grape jelly in them.

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So that was sort of the level of sophistication that we had. That's great. Yes.

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And so what I noticed right away was how much better it made me feel.

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It was like I could sort of breathe deeper.

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I felt looser and lighter.

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And I had a very fun and giggly afternoon with my friend.

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And that really captured my attention, that this is a positive experience.

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And therefore, I need more of this. And you said you were 12?

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I was 12. Yeah. So positive experience in your life or most of your day was

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full of negative experiences, I guess.

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Right. I mean, it really seemed to get rid of some of the stress that I,

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I mean, I was really clenched in a lot of ways, tight all the time.

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I lived in a fairly constant state of anxiety because I never knew what was going to happen.

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And, and I also knew that what I did and what happened to me,

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there wasn't a real connection between those two things. And so I I had little control.

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There were a few techniques I developed, things that I, for example,

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taught my sister about how to avoid my stepfather, but really,

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ultimately, I didn't have any ability to stop the violence.

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And so that just was a constant anxiety. And the alcohol lifted that anxiety for the moment.

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Kind of set the scene for me here. How does one at 12 start drinking and then,

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of course, escalate into some other things in the next couple of years,

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kind of without your mom mom and other adults in your life noticing that?

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Were they just not paying attention? Did they not care?

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How do you explain that? What happened there? Yeah.

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I mean, I quickly, I did seek out alcohol and it was pretty readily available at parties.

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I even stole alcohol beer from my stepfather, even though it was a risk because

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that's how much I wanted it. But weed was readily available.

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There were some pills around. And then I did a a lot of acid my sophomore year.

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But from the parents, if they noticed, they never said anything.

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And I don't know that it was so extreme until I hit meth.

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When I was 16, I started using methamphetamine. And at 17, I was shooting up

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and I started losing a lot of weight.

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I was also really avoiding them, but I looked haggard at times and I wasn't going home a lot.

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And they mostly ignored it. And I really think it's because they didn't want

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to invest the emotional emotional energy that it would have taken to address the issue.

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Yeah, that's pretty wild. At 16, well, for sure, shooting meth is pretty wild.

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But I think you might have been gone for a couple days at a time.

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Yes, I was frequently gone. As a parent myself, I just, you know, I can't really...

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I can't wrap my head around how that would be possible.

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What would be going through my mind that would make that acceptable?

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And part of it was that my sister and I actually lived in a little apartment over the garage.

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And so, you know, sometimes they may not have even known that I was missing.

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I didn't show up. They didn't look for me. But you're right.

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I mean, it's really telling that I could be gone that often.

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And even when I was there, I didn't look well. I really didn't.

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There was one summer where my mother, the only time she ever saw me was in a

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bathrobe that had three quarter length sleeves because it was a light summer

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robe, but it covered up my track marks.

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And it was the only thing I could wear that wouldn't capture attention.

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Like, why are you wearing those long sleeves in the summer in New Jersey?

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So she never saw me for an entire summer except in that robe. And she never noticed.

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I wonder in today's time. Now, this was a couple of years ago, Mary Beth.

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We don't have to date anybody here, but a few years ago. and this is in New Jersey area, right?

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Yeah, Central Jersey. Yeah. So I just wonder if you were, if this happened today.

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Like wouldn't CPS be called by somebody or wouldn't somebody at school,

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one of your teachers or something, did they ask any questions about any of this?

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I mean, for CPS, right?

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The police were called a couple of times because of the violence,

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but only one time was my stepfather arrested And that's when he really,

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there was a life-threatening incident with my mom. He was choking her.

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She was really in danger.

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The other times that the police came, they would say things along the lines

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of, you know, well, go away and cool off.

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Today, I'd like to think that things would be, there would be an earlier intervention

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and it's more recognize the problems with physical violence against children.

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But at the same time, there are children all over America that suffer from abuse

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on on a regular basis that are still in the home.

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And the other thing is foster care is a separate risk, right?

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There are a lot of foster families.

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Don't get me wrong. There are many foster families that try to do a good job,

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but it's also a risky situation for a lot of foster kids. They don't always

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end up in better environments.

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Yeah. Do you think if more appropriate or aggressive interaction had occurred,

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that your story would have changed? Or do you think this was what was going to happen?

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You would have found a way to do this at this point.

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If there would have been appropriate intervention in the sense that we were

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taken out of the household and put into a healthy living situation,

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things could have turned out very differently.

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I mean, especially if I would have been given the mental health treatment that

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I needed. I really, I found out later that I had PTSD.

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I had other sexual assaults later, but just from living in the household.

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I suffered with OCD-like tendencies and severe anxiety as a child.

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So if the mental health issues could have been addressed and I could have been

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in a safe environment, yes, I think the long-term drug addiction could possibly have been avoided.

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One of the things that jumped out to me as I was reading, you appear to be gifted

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or blessed with an insane amount of intelligence, like book smarts.

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You appear to miss half of your semester of school and just go in and pass or

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even ace most of your tests or whatever you have to do.

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So that's got to be a silver lining for you as far as how you got through it and where you are now.

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Yes. I mean, school, as I said, was my special place and it got me out of town.

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So when I went to college, I left Central Jersey and came to California.

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I ended up graduating from Berkeley.

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And so that was a big geographic change. But also, I wasn't living in a violent household anymore.

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And at first, I did do better. I used fewer drugs.

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I used mostly alcohol, sometimes pills or hallucinogens or cocaine,

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but mostly on the weekend, only occasionally did it roll into the week.

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But I had a life-threatening kidnapping by three men and raped for six hours.

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And I moved in with a violent boyfriend, which is common with abused women to

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do. And I just sort of lost my grip.

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So on one hand, it got me out of the house and I did better for a while,

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but I really hadn't addressed the underlying traumas.

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And I fell back into it. And I started using meth again on a regular basis in

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my senior year of college, and I didn't get sober until I was 32.

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So looking back on the story now, is the 16-year-old meth use,

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is that kind of where things really fell apart or really ramped up in the wrong

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direction? Or was there a different point?

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I mean, I definitely abused all the other drugs and there were bad incidents,

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but the meth was the point at which things really escalated.

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They got a lot worse and I really sunk into a deeper level of despair and it's

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such a hard drug on your body.

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For one thing, you don't sleep and that's not good for the brain that it became

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a really vicious spiral.

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So if that's kind of the start of it, is there a moment in time or an event

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that happened, a spark that you said, okay, enough's enough.

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We're not going to do this anymore. I got to change this. What was that like?

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I mean, for me, it was a process, which I think is the more common path.

218
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But at 32, I was really having physical problems from that very toxic drug that I took for so long.

219
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But also, I was just in sort of emotional despair. spare.

220
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And I felt trapped and hopeless and helpless. And I couldn't hold a job.

221
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And my partner was ready to throw me out. So it was sort of everything in combination

222
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that made me say, you know, well, what if I go to rehab?

223
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And so that's why I went. But it wasn't that I was sure I could get sober or

224
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I really didn't think I could.

225
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My goal was to try to figure out how to use less because I thought that was

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the best possible option.

227
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I didn't really believe I could could stop.

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But over time, as I saw other people who had succeeded and as I got some time

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with drugs out of my system, I started to think, well, maybe I can do it too.

230
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And so let's give it a serious effort. Were you ever homeless?

231
00:16:14,827 --> 00:16:18,807
No, I wasn't. I was lucky. I mean, I was lucky in that way. I had a long-term

232
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partner and I lived in sort of a middle-class neighborhood.

233
00:16:21,787 --> 00:16:25,287
Yeah. You were lucky with an abusive partner. Is that, did I get that right?

234
00:16:25,667 --> 00:16:30,267
No. So my abusive partner, I I was in college and I left him.

235
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I started dating my current husband in my senior year of college,

236
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who was a really good guy.

237
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And I was living with him when I went to rehab. He was the one who was sort

238
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of done with me at that point.

239
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It wasn't done like me. He was just, he couldn't deal with it anymore.

240
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He wanted out. Yeah, I can understand.

241
00:16:47,847 --> 00:16:54,127
So at no point were you homeless, though, during this 16 to 26-year-old time period.

242
00:16:54,707 --> 00:16:57,987
That's right. And you're using a lot of drugs.

243
00:16:58,947 --> 00:17:02,747
So how does that work? You're not homeless. You can't hold a job.

244
00:17:03,596 --> 00:17:08,756
Is that stuff readily available? And is it cheaper than I think it is?

245
00:17:08,856 --> 00:17:11,196
Or are there just lots of other ways to make all that happen?

246
00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:17,296
Well, I was working intermittently. I would have a job. I would hold it for six months to a year.

247
00:17:17,376 --> 00:17:20,756
And then I would get laid off but really fired. And I would collect unemployment.

248
00:17:21,136 --> 00:17:27,156
And you have friends who are dealers. And so you pay the wholesale rate rather

249
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than the retail rate, which keeps you going.

250
00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:32,036
But you're just also part part of that community.

251
00:17:32,376 --> 00:17:36,476
And so drugs, I really don't know anyone who has a drug problem who generally

252
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has problems finding drugs.

253
00:17:38,416 --> 00:17:43,716
They're easy to find in most communities and you over time have your circle

254
00:17:43,716 --> 00:17:46,056
of friends and you each help each other out.

255
00:17:46,156 --> 00:17:48,136
If one of your connections goes

256
00:17:48,136 --> 00:17:52,176
dry, you call a buddy and somebody else will be able to find it. Okay.

257
00:17:52,476 --> 00:17:56,476
What is your relationship with something like caffeine? caffeine?

258
00:17:56,476 --> 00:18:00,916
I drink a little caffeine, but I don't drink that much of it.

259
00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:08,076
And I never use that much as an emotion management tool or as an energy burst.

260
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I tend to be high energy naturally, which is part of why it's interesting that

261
00:18:12,696 --> 00:18:16,356
I was drawn to meth and not the opiates. You'd think that I wanted to be calmed

262
00:18:16,356 --> 00:18:20,336
down, but meth just chemically, for whatever reason, fit me best.

263
00:18:20,656 --> 00:18:25,336
Do you have, just for lack of a better term, an addictive personality or something?

264
00:18:25,656 --> 00:18:30,096
Or is that a myth or that doesn't necessarily fit for you?

265
00:18:30,516 --> 00:18:35,796
Yeah, I mean, it's a myth in one way. So what happens when you get sober is

266
00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:41,576
if you don't deal with the underlying reasons that pushed you into the excessive drug use,

267
00:18:41,736 --> 00:18:45,896
and I say excessive drug use because most people use drugs at moderate levels,

268
00:18:46,056 --> 00:18:50,556
but if you don't deal with the underlying impetus and the underlying pain,

269
00:18:50,756 --> 00:18:54,736
then it is feasible that you might pick up other techniques.

270
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Some people will turn to food or they'll turn to, you know, gambling or something else.

271
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But if you address what's happening internally, if you address your emotional

272
00:19:03,916 --> 00:19:10,976
pain, then that tends to remove the sort of the impulse, the reason to pick

273
00:19:10,976 --> 00:19:13,456
up other unhealthy behaviors.

274
00:19:14,656 --> 00:19:21,356
Okay. So it sounds like your husband was pretty critical in your road to sobriety.

275
00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:24,456
He was a big help. Although I will say when I went into rehab,

276
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he was really, you know, done.

277
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And they have like family therapy sessions in most rehabs. And he came a couple

278
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of times and he was very clear.

279
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He wasn't sure we were going to survive this. He wasn't making any promises.

280
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But when I got out, we did, you know, we did couples counseling.

281
00:19:39,796 --> 00:19:43,656
In addition, I had individual therapy and other things. And I was doing my peer

282
00:19:43,656 --> 00:19:49,476
support meetings for my sobriety. We had to do a lot of work in order to build

283
00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:53,636
a healthy relationship and heal the wounds of the relationship.

284
00:19:54,016 --> 00:19:57,316
Sure, yeah. But just in my opinion, and you can...

285
00:19:58,159 --> 00:20:00,059
Say what you think about this, but I think the buddy system,

286
00:20:00,219 --> 00:20:01,839
at least for me, is always better.

287
00:20:02,399 --> 00:20:04,879
And do you think you would have been able to do it on your own?

288
00:20:05,319 --> 00:20:09,479
The data shows that if people have positive, loving relationships with friends

289
00:20:09,479 --> 00:20:10,999
and family, their odds of success

290
00:20:10,999 --> 00:20:14,999
in achieving abstinence, if that's what they're going for, it is higher.

291
00:20:15,199 --> 00:20:18,979
And certainly I had the advantage of living in a calm home, right?

292
00:20:19,199 --> 00:20:22,959
In a safe home, in a stable home. When I got home from rehab,

293
00:20:23,259 --> 00:20:27,659
I really wasn't ready for full-time work. And so I worked part our time.

294
00:20:27,979 --> 00:20:32,019
And he allowed that as long as I was making positive forward steps.

295
00:20:32,299 --> 00:20:37,939
Not everyone has that calm of a living situation, that stable of a living situation

296
00:20:37,939 --> 00:20:42,539
or the financial option to start slow rebuilding themselves professionally.

297
00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:46,179
Okay. So that's kind of the junkie portion of the title of the book.

298
00:20:46,399 --> 00:20:49,639
Let's talk about more like the judge portion title of the book here.

299
00:20:49,699 --> 00:20:53,579
So as I mentioned, you're insanely or at least appear to be insanely intelligent.

300
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,679
And I'm sure it wasn't easy.

301
00:20:57,379 --> 00:21:00,779
As though it wouldn't be easy for anybody, but you made it through law school.

302
00:21:01,319 --> 00:21:06,879
Did you go to Cal Berkeley? I did. I went to Berkeley Law when I had six and a half years sober.

303
00:21:07,299 --> 00:21:12,719
Yeah. So I mean, that's not shabby, I guess. No, that's right. Top 10 law school.

304
00:21:13,759 --> 00:21:18,219
So how do you find yourself there? And what was that experience like?

305
00:21:18,539 --> 00:21:23,619
I mean, I can't imagine there were other meth users in your group of friends

306
00:21:23,619 --> 00:21:27,779
at law school, or were there? I don't know anyone else who was using meth in

307
00:21:27,779 --> 00:21:30,739
law school, but I didn't talk about my drug history there either.

308
00:21:31,019 --> 00:21:33,279
It was really something I kept to myself.

309
00:21:33,879 --> 00:21:37,959
And I will say one of the advantages of going to law school,

310
00:21:37,979 --> 00:21:41,379
I was 39 when I started. I was six and a half years sober.

311
00:21:41,619 --> 00:21:47,339
So I was actually really ready to be disciplined and do it in a very focused

312
00:21:47,339 --> 00:21:51,519
way. Although it was strange being back in school after so many years,

313
00:21:51,779 --> 00:21:55,499
I was able to sort of just, I treated it as a job.

314
00:21:55,639 --> 00:21:58,299
You know, I started at this time in the morning, I went until this time in the

315
00:21:58,299 --> 00:22:01,639
evening and just approached it in a systemic way.

316
00:22:01,919 --> 00:22:05,799
Did you start law school at Berkeley or did you start somewhere else originally?

317
00:22:06,748 --> 00:22:09,708
So I had gone to Berkeley Law right out of college.

318
00:22:09,888 --> 00:22:13,428
But remember, I started using meth again in January of my senior year.

319
00:22:13,548 --> 00:22:17,088
So by the time I got there in the fall, I was in no shape to do it.

320
00:22:17,168 --> 00:22:20,208
I mean, I couldn't get to class. And when I was there, I couldn't concentrate.

321
00:22:20,848 --> 00:22:26,088
And so I withdrew. I mean, I gave back a top 10 law school because of my meth

322
00:22:26,088 --> 00:22:28,748
addiction. And I knew that was why. And it was agonizing.

323
00:22:29,268 --> 00:22:35,008
Was anybody at the school aware of that at that time and trying to help you?

324
00:22:35,008 --> 00:22:38,748
Or any, was there anybody saying, Hey, what's going on here at the school?

325
00:22:38,828 --> 00:22:42,688
No, no. I mean, I filled out the withdrawal paperwork, but I gave financial

326
00:22:42,688 --> 00:22:47,528
and health reasons or something vague like that, you know? And so I never talked to them about it.

327
00:22:47,848 --> 00:22:51,528
All right. So law school is typically about three years. Is that right?

328
00:22:51,928 --> 00:22:55,588
Right. Were you on the three-year plan or I guess not, were you on the three

329
00:22:55,588 --> 00:22:56,588
or four or five-year plan?

330
00:22:57,548 --> 00:23:00,908
So I went through and I, and I didn't go back because I wasn't,

331
00:23:00,908 --> 00:23:02,368
I wasn't in any shape to go back.

332
00:23:02,468 --> 00:23:06,728
And so when I got sober, it was sort of It's still this great loss that I had

333
00:23:06,728 --> 00:23:09,248
had this in my hands and I had to give it back.

334
00:23:09,588 --> 00:23:13,908
But when I got sober, as I said, I wasn't even ready to hold a full-time job.

335
00:23:14,248 --> 00:23:19,728
So I had to work my way up into full-time employment. And then I worked up into middle management.

336
00:23:20,188 --> 00:23:23,888
And then I started thinking, also, I was getting older. And I thought,

337
00:23:23,908 --> 00:23:27,148
well, either I go to law school sooner or I just admit I'm not going to do it.

338
00:23:27,748 --> 00:23:30,728
And so when I was 39, I went to law school.

339
00:23:30,848 --> 00:23:34,048
And I did apply to Berkeley again, but they didn't take me back at first.

340
00:23:34,048 --> 00:23:37,788
I ended up at UC, University of California, Hastings Law School,

341
00:23:37,888 --> 00:23:42,188
which is a good law school, but it's not as highly ranked as Berkeley.

342
00:23:42,468 --> 00:23:47,208
But I was number three in my class of 400 at Hastings. And so then Berkeley

343
00:23:47,208 --> 00:23:50,148
took me back as a transfer and I graduated from Berkeley Law.

344
00:23:50,348 --> 00:23:53,248
Okay, awesome. So what happens now? Let's get to the...

345
00:23:54,073 --> 00:23:58,093
How do we get to be a judge? You go into, is it corporate law to begin with?

346
00:23:58,493 --> 00:24:04,433
Yes. I worked at a really large law firm in Silicon Valley doing complex litigation and class action work.

347
00:24:04,613 --> 00:24:08,113
And then I went to do class action work for the federal government.

348
00:24:08,413 --> 00:24:13,773
And then when I had 20 years sober, I was appointed a federal administrative

349
00:24:13,773 --> 00:24:16,693
law judge. So what is the role of that?

350
00:24:17,273 --> 00:24:21,253
So in the federal government, ALGs work for a specific agency.

351
00:24:21,553 --> 00:24:26,133
And so I worked for the the Social Security Administration. So I mostly handled disability cases.

352
00:24:26,773 --> 00:24:31,213
Okay. And when you say handling them, what does the attorney do for that?

353
00:24:31,353 --> 00:24:33,633
Are you representing the state or the government, I guess?

354
00:24:34,213 --> 00:24:37,273
So I didn't do that as an attorney. I did that as a judge. Oh,

355
00:24:37,273 --> 00:24:40,993
I'm sorry. I did that as a judge. Yeah. Yeah. So you're hearing disability cases?

356
00:24:41,553 --> 00:24:44,633
Correct. I'm hearing disability cases and issuing decisions about them.

357
00:24:44,733 --> 00:24:47,473
I did other kinds of cases, but that was the bulk of it.

358
00:24:47,953 --> 00:24:51,593
Anything remarkable about that time? I'm sure sure you got lots of crazy stories

359
00:24:51,593 --> 00:24:55,933
that you probably can't tell, but was there a common theme in most of those cases?

360
00:24:56,413 --> 00:25:00,493
Well, I will say that I saw a lot of people that had trauma histories and therefore

361
00:25:00,493 --> 00:25:01,913
mental health conditions.

362
00:25:02,113 --> 00:25:06,793
And I saw a lot of people that had substance use disorders either actively or in their past.

363
00:25:06,993 --> 00:25:11,813
And there was specific law I had to apply, but I certainly understood their

364
00:25:11,813 --> 00:25:14,653
history and where things came from. Yeah.

365
00:25:14,733 --> 00:25:19,913
So how does substance abuse and physical abuse, emotional abuse,

366
00:25:20,053 --> 00:25:23,413
you know, like your upbringing, how closely are those connected?

367
00:25:23,773 --> 00:25:30,413
The odds of someone that has a significant trauma history, especially a longer

368
00:25:30,413 --> 00:25:33,893
term, in other words, not like a one event trauma, but something ongoing.

369
00:25:34,093 --> 00:25:36,193
Today, we would call that complex PTSD.

370
00:25:36,913 --> 00:25:41,013
My odds, because I had that history of developing a substance use disorder,

371
00:25:41,113 --> 00:25:45,733
were three to four times the national average. And you're just much more likely to have that happen.

372
00:25:46,574 --> 00:25:51,454
But also trauma actually can have physical impacts. There is data that shows

373
00:25:51,454 --> 00:25:55,414
that even as you get older, your odds of getting an autoimmune condition are

374
00:25:55,414 --> 00:25:57,714
higher, certain types of cancer.

375
00:25:57,834 --> 00:26:02,614
So having childhood and other traumas, especially ongoing, has a significant

376
00:26:02,614 --> 00:26:06,234
impact on your mental health as well as your physical health.

377
00:26:06,454 --> 00:26:10,594
On your road to sobriety, did you meet other people like you?

378
00:26:10,594 --> 00:26:15,074
I mean, I know you went through some rehabs and things, but outside of the rehab,

379
00:26:15,354 --> 00:26:20,454
were there people that were doing what you were doing that wanted to get out

380
00:26:20,454 --> 00:26:22,814
and get somewhere different?

381
00:26:23,154 --> 00:26:25,834
I mean, did you interact with those people? Was there any kind of support network

382
00:26:25,834 --> 00:26:27,674
just amongst your peers in that regard?

383
00:26:28,314 --> 00:26:33,154
I mean, everyone that gets sober that I know wants to build their life.

384
00:26:33,314 --> 00:26:36,494
And usually that's a multi-pronged attack. people

385
00:26:36,494 --> 00:26:39,614
usually come in with professional ramifications although

386
00:26:39,614 --> 00:26:42,574
not always but a lot of us have to build up from there people often have

387
00:26:42,574 --> 00:26:45,254
debt a lot of times they don't have custody of their

388
00:26:45,254 --> 00:26:50,234
kids anymore but also most of a high percentage of different numbers I've seen

389
00:26:50,234 --> 00:26:55,194
55 to 75 percent have a mental health condition in addition to their substance

390
00:26:55,194 --> 00:26:59,314
use disorder that they need to address and so I saw a lot of people with similar

391
00:26:59,314 --> 00:27:02,794
histories to mine a lot of people facing similar challenges.

392
00:27:02,994 --> 00:27:07,214
And that is one of the advantages of peer support groups like 12 Steps,

393
00:27:07,214 --> 00:27:10,494
which wasn't right for me, but it's good for a lot of people.

394
00:27:10,554 --> 00:27:14,354
But also there are others like Life Ring CycloRecovery or SheRecovers.

395
00:27:14,494 --> 00:27:20,114
When you go to peer support meetings, you meet people who have had your experience,

396
00:27:20,234 --> 00:27:23,754
but you meet some people who are sort of ahead of you in the recovery process.

397
00:27:24,034 --> 00:27:27,134
And that can be reassuring that they are succeeding,

398
00:27:27,574 --> 00:27:31,774
they're finding a way out, But it's also a source of ideas, sort of what techniques

399
00:27:31,774 --> 00:27:36,254
are they using, what strategies are they using, how they approach it,

400
00:27:36,294 --> 00:27:39,394
what can I adopt, what do I think will help me succeed as well.

401
00:27:39,714 --> 00:27:44,154
One of the things you talk about in the book is multiple pathways to recovery.

402
00:27:45,206 --> 00:27:50,506
What, what does that mean to you? And how does that, so like AA or NA or those

403
00:27:50,506 --> 00:27:52,826
types of things, don't they, you don't think they work for everybody?

404
00:27:53,306 --> 00:27:56,666
Well, they don't work for everybody. We know that the data shows that.

405
00:27:56,826 --> 00:28:00,506
And, and the other thing is that other peer support groups like Life Ring and

406
00:28:00,506 --> 00:28:04,706
Smart Recovery and Women for Sovereignty, they work just as well as 12 Steps.

407
00:28:04,706 --> 00:28:06,366
There are studies that show that as well.

408
00:28:06,446 --> 00:28:09,706
So it's really about what's the right fit for the individual.

409
00:28:10,126 --> 00:28:13,086
And, and also you can mix and match them, which is what I do.

410
00:28:13,386 --> 00:28:17,426
So people, you know, know, the different programs have different philosophies.

411
00:28:17,426 --> 00:28:18,806
They have different meeting formats.

412
00:28:19,146 --> 00:28:23,206
The books are different. But Life Ring, for example, on the board for Life Ring,

413
00:28:23,346 --> 00:28:28,766
they focus on self-empowerment, but also the individual nature of the recovery plan.

414
00:28:28,906 --> 00:28:33,046
That my plan and your plan will probably be different because we're different

415
00:28:33,046 --> 00:28:36,706
people and we have different priorities and we have different things we want to work on.

416
00:28:36,846 --> 00:28:39,586
So there are a lot of different approaches, but that's the good news.

417
00:28:39,826 --> 00:28:43,966
And today there's actually Google, which there wasn't when when I got sober in 1994.

418
00:28:44,426 --> 00:28:48,946
So you can look at them all and see which one is most attractive to you,

419
00:28:48,966 --> 00:28:50,706
which looks like it's going to be the best fit.

420
00:28:51,206 --> 00:28:55,166
And as far as the writing of the book goes, what was that like?

421
00:28:55,206 --> 00:28:59,106
What spurred you to want to write about your experience? Did that have anything

422
00:28:59,106 --> 00:29:00,286
to do with the recovery process?

423
00:29:00,606 --> 00:29:03,506
Or was that just, you know, people, you hear this all the time,

424
00:29:03,526 --> 00:29:05,606
you should write a book. You know, people say that all the time.

425
00:29:06,226 --> 00:29:10,146
So you definitely You definitely did. And it's really incredible.

426
00:29:10,266 --> 00:29:11,986
But what prompted the process?

427
00:29:12,246 --> 00:29:17,966
And while you were writing, was there stuff that you left out because this is

428
00:29:17,966 --> 00:29:21,806
too personal or too close to me?

429
00:29:22,106 --> 00:29:26,446
I can't imagine there is. If there is, it must be very close because there's

430
00:29:26,446 --> 00:29:29,046
a lot of things happening in that book.

431
00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:33,540
Yeah. So when I was appointed a judge, it was sort of a natural reflection time.

432
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,380
Like, you know, how the heck did I go from shooting method 17 until 32?

433
00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:40,500
It's not like it was short lived. Right. And then become a judge.

434
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,660
And so I really started thinking about, could my story have value?

435
00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:47,200
You know, is there a way that I could use it to be helpful?

436
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:51,080
And so one of the things I did, as I mentioned, was read memoir.

437
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,720
And, and what I found was that I didn't see the book I wanted to write.

438
00:29:55,820 --> 00:30:00,080
Like most memoirs, recovery memoirs sort of jump into to the drug addiction,

439
00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:02,320
but they don't show where it came from.

440
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,200
And I really wanted to show what my life experiences, my family,

441
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:12,700
my history was that made it make sense to me to use drugs at that level.

442
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,020
But also a lot of memoirs at the end, it's sort of like I went to a couple of

443
00:30:17,020 --> 00:30:20,120
meetings and everything was great. And it's like, well, that's not how recovery works.

444
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:26,140
So my memoir, 30% of it is about my first three years of recovery because I

445
00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:30,800
wanted to show a more realistic example. example, but also about how you might

446
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,720
do it if you're not exclusively a 12-step person.

447
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,060
So I show different techniques. 12-step people can use as well,

448
00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:41,900
but if you want to take a more individual approach, this is one way to do it.

449
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,800
And also I talk about the trauma recovery as being part of my recovery process.

450
00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:51,440
So I didn't see the book that I wanted to write. And so I thought that I would

451
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,780
try to do it and see if my story could be of value.

452
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,880
Yeah, just do it yourself. So something you just said, well,

453
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,940
it's almost like an entrepreneurial spirit there.

454
00:31:00,980 --> 00:31:04,060
You don't see what you want, so you just make it, which is tremendous. Yeah.

455
00:31:04,540 --> 00:31:08,700
As you were talking there, you said using meth from 16 to, I think you said 32.

456
00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:14,720
What does that do to your body with that time? I mean, you mentioned no sleep for lots of years.

457
00:31:15,265 --> 00:31:20,465
Lots of that time and just all the stress and things that you're under normally, that can't help.

458
00:31:21,125 --> 00:31:24,665
That's right. I mean, certainly, you know, I do have, I've had dental work after,

459
00:31:24,785 --> 00:31:28,805
you know, Wazoo as most people are familiar with, they associate that with meth,

460
00:31:28,865 --> 00:31:33,645
but also it's really, a lot of it is the impact on your brain because not only

461
00:31:33,645 --> 00:31:38,845
are you throwing a very, very toxic chemical in, but not sleeping is really bad for your brain.

462
00:31:38,965 --> 00:31:44,905
And so it takes a long time for the the brain to recover fully from a long-term meth addiction.

463
00:31:45,305 --> 00:31:49,845
And I've seen brain scans, like when you're actively using, when you're six

464
00:31:49,845 --> 00:31:54,305
months sober, a year sober, two years sober, it's really not until around two

465
00:31:54,305 --> 00:31:58,605
years sober that the brain starts to look pretty close to the typical brain.

466
00:31:58,845 --> 00:32:04,445
And that's part of the reason why recovery is more, or staying sober is more

467
00:32:04,445 --> 00:32:07,445
challenging in the early days than it is in the later days.

468
00:32:07,625 --> 00:32:11,105
It takes a while for the brain to heal, heal but also

469
00:32:11,105 --> 00:32:14,145
we talk a lot about how substance use

470
00:32:14,145 --> 00:32:17,325
rewires the brain but recovery rewires the

471
00:32:17,325 --> 00:32:20,825
brain too so when you're making positive choices especially

472
00:32:20,825 --> 00:32:24,725
over and over they become sort of a habit and you don't think about but all

473
00:32:24,725 --> 00:32:29,285
those positive decisions and behaviors they they they help your brain heal in

474
00:32:29,285 --> 00:32:34,085
a more positive direction so it can take a while for all of that to happen so

475
00:32:34,085 --> 00:32:37,645
other than talking to people like me on podcasts and things about your book

476
00:32:37,645 --> 00:32:39,625
what is What is life like for you these days?

477
00:32:40,225 --> 00:32:43,585
So I'm on the board for Life, Brain, and Secular Recovery. I'm on the board

478
00:32:43,585 --> 00:32:44,645
for SheRecovers Foundation.

479
00:32:45,125 --> 00:32:48,885
I write opinion pieces. I've been in the Wall Street Journal and the LA Times

480
00:32:48,885 --> 00:32:52,905
and Recovery Today and others. And those are all on my Jumping the Judge website.

481
00:32:53,425 --> 00:32:56,825
And I do a lot of speaking and trainings at conferences.

482
00:32:57,005 --> 00:33:01,885
I train lawyers and judges. They have continuing legal education requirements.

483
00:33:02,265 --> 00:33:06,185
I teach them about substance use and treatment options and things like that.

484
00:33:06,185 --> 00:33:11,545
And I'll do a keynote as a fundraiser for recovery organizations.

485
00:33:11,905 --> 00:33:18,265
So I do a wide variety of things in what I've defined as my space now about

486
00:33:18,265 --> 00:33:20,425
substance use and recovery education,

487
00:33:21,025 --> 00:33:26,465
stigma reduction, and trying to use my story to help people listen to some information

488
00:33:26,465 --> 00:33:27,805
I think it's important to share.

489
00:33:28,633 --> 00:33:32,253
What would your message be to somebody that was like you? I don't know.

490
00:33:32,293 --> 00:33:35,893
We said 19 earlier, but let's say you're a stranger talking to somebody with

491
00:33:35,893 --> 00:33:40,493
all of your recovery things that you've done and all the time you've done.

492
00:33:40,573 --> 00:33:45,553
What would you say to somebody to give them hope or what would the plan be to

493
00:33:45,553 --> 00:33:47,193
get on the road to recovery?

494
00:33:47,693 --> 00:33:52,033
I mean, for the plan, I would have a specific conversation with them to see where they are.

495
00:33:52,213 --> 00:33:56,353
So today we talk about substance use disorder, like all mental health conditions

496
00:33:56,353 --> 00:33:59,133
that you you can have a mild, moderate, or severe case.

497
00:33:59,413 --> 00:34:04,813
And for example, what treatment would be best for you can depend where you fall on that spectrum.

498
00:34:05,213 --> 00:34:08,473
But it's also true that not everyone can access treatment.

499
00:34:08,873 --> 00:34:13,933
America doesn't really offer readily accessible, affordable treatment for everyone.

500
00:34:14,173 --> 00:34:18,113
And so the conversation about what are the realistic options,

501
00:34:18,453 --> 00:34:24,813
what different techniques might be useful, but also to try to use my example as a sign of hope.

502
00:34:24,913 --> 00:34:30,033
I mean, I was 32. to, I used drugs for 20 years. I had a significant child abuse

503
00:34:30,033 --> 00:34:32,153
history, other assault history.

504
00:34:32,393 --> 00:34:37,913
And yet I found my way out, not just to being sober, but to a really happy and

505
00:34:37,913 --> 00:34:40,193
productive life and to try to use

506
00:34:40,193 --> 00:34:45,193
that as a light for them that this dark tunnel, there is a way out of it.

507
00:34:45,333 --> 00:34:49,193
If you're willing to do it and you want to do it, there's a way out.

508
00:34:50,014 --> 00:34:54,034
Yeah, well, there is a little oversimplified there, but yeah,

509
00:34:54,094 --> 00:34:58,054
it's a lot of hard work and people do usually have ups and downs.

510
00:34:58,174 --> 00:35:02,254
I mean, I used three times in my first five months. I didn't have perfect sobriety

511
00:35:02,254 --> 00:35:05,334
from day one. And yet I just have 30 years sober in January.

512
00:35:05,614 --> 00:35:11,954
So, but yes, ultimately I see the two biggest factors or characteristics are

513
00:35:11,954 --> 00:35:16,314
patience and persistence because you really need to keep at it to have,

514
00:35:16,314 --> 00:35:17,614
to have ultimate success.

515
00:35:17,614 --> 00:35:22,934
But the good news is that in their lifetime, 75% of the people with a substance

516
00:35:22,934 --> 00:35:24,694
use disorder will eventually recover.

517
00:35:25,414 --> 00:35:29,134
That's great. Well, congratulations on your recovery and on the book.

518
00:35:29,214 --> 00:35:30,174
It really is tremendous.

519
00:35:30,414 --> 00:35:32,934
I'm going to have a link to it in the show notes. I would encourage anybody

520
00:35:32,934 --> 00:35:38,174
to read it or share it with somebody that you know may need to hear this message.

521
00:35:38,314 --> 00:35:39,454
It is really incredible.

522
00:35:39,894 --> 00:35:42,474
Where's the best place to find the book and find you, Mary Beth?

523
00:35:42,834 --> 00:35:46,974
The book's on Amazon and all the usual sites or bookstores have it or can get

524
00:35:46,974 --> 00:35:51,094
it. My website is junketajudge.com, and I have information there.

525
00:35:51,194 --> 00:35:56,594
And I'm on Twitter at MaryBethO underscore, and I don't argue with people on

526
00:35:56,594 --> 00:35:58,374
Twitter. What I do is I share information.

527
00:35:58,734 --> 00:36:02,334
So I will post there the new studies that come out, articles,

528
00:36:02,434 --> 00:36:05,614
opinion pieces that I think will be helpful for people.

529
00:36:06,474 --> 00:36:09,754
Tremendous. Well, thanks so much for hanging out with us, Mary Beth. Thanks for having me.

530
00:36:13,174 --> 00:36:16,434
Thanks so much for spending your time with the Destiny Debatable Podcast.

531
00:36:17,214 --> 00:36:21,194
Please rate and write a review wherever you subscribe. It really does help us

532
00:36:21,194 --> 00:36:22,414
grow and reach new people.

533
00:36:23,034 --> 00:36:26,594
For more information, visit johnbgrimes.com.

534
00:36:28,734 --> 00:36:31,354
Destiny is Debatable is a Symblom production.

535
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,806
Music.