An Eye-Opening Conversation with Disability Life Coach, Charlie Kramer

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Music.

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Welcome to destiny is debatable a podcast and movement that will encourage you

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to build your life into the one you want.

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Here's your host a guy whose vision is like looking through binoculars backwards john grimes,

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hey hey howdy howdy thanks for tuning in subscribing and supporting the podcast

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experience The guest for this episode is Charlie Kramer.

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Charlie, among many things in life, is a disability life coach.

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And I don't know, he just has an incredible aura about himself and kind of how

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he teaches people through his social media posts and things that he says and talks that he's done.

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He's a pretty incredible guy and also a musician.

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So I was doubly interested in bringing Charlie on to find out some more.

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Hey, Charlie. Thanks for stopping by.

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Thanks so much for having me. It's nice to be here. It is. Nice to have you

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here, Charlie. It's been a long way getting this done.

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We've actually been talking about this. Well, not talking, but we originally

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had this scheduled for maybe a year or two ago. And just things happen.

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And the good news is that we're both still doing the same thing a couple years

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later. So yeah, agreed. I might be something about that.

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Maybe we're doing good stuff. I think we are.

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That must be it. Well, I hope that's the case. Yeah. Yeah.

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Okay. So disability life coach, the great Charlie Kramer's here with us.

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But before we get into that, Charlie, I have a few questions that I have to,

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I'm legally obligated by my listeners to ask you to get to know Charlie.

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So hang in there. Okay. Okay. I'm ready.

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You're a musician, Charlie. So this is an interesting question,

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I think. What is your favorite band or type of music?

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That's a big question for me. I would say if I have to choose one band,

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it's definitely The Who.

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I've seen them the most times in concert. Actually, I've seen them four times.

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I never saw them with Entwistle, unfortunately, but I've seen and with Roger

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Daltrey and Pete Townsend.

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And, you know, it's been amazing every single time. But I love a lot of type

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of music, you know, bluegrass.

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And, you know, I listen to a lot of like Irish and Scottish modern folk type stuff.

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And you name it, I listen to it, honestly.

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Okay, cool. Yeah. All right. What about reading?

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Do you have a favorite book or type of book or author? I don't do a lot of reading.

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It's never really been my thing.

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But I recently listened to the audio book of Matthew McConaughey called Greenlights.

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Yeah. Okay. So did you like that? It was great. It was great. I loved it. Yeah.

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And it's kind of sparked a drive in me to start listening to some more audio books as well.

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It's actually on my list of things to read.

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It's great. Yeah. I like Matthew. He's an interesting guy. I'd recommend it for sure.

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Okay, if you could have coffee with two other people in history,

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who would they be and what do you think you'd talk about?

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The first person would, you know, I, for the listeners, this might be more of

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a boring answer, but for me, this is the truth.

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I would bring my partner, Greta, without a doubt.

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Well, we're interested in the truth, so let's have it. Yeah.

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Yeah. I would definitely bring Greta with me.

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She's my life partner and someone that I always want to have around.

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And I also would bring my grandfather.

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We call him Papa Sean. He passed away when I was five years old and has this,

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I don't know, there's just some kind of connection there that's always guided me.

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And I've always felt super drawn to him, even though I didn't,

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you know, I was so young when he passed away.

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So I'd want to have the two of them there, have a cup of coffee,

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maybe even let it be a pint of Guinness, you know, and just relax and enjoy

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and connect with them and reflect.

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Who has been the best coach or guiding influence in your life?

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I think both of my parents in different ways.

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I've definitely had people outside of my parents who have been really helpful

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and I've hired coaches and I've worked with therapists and there's been so many people along the way.

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And I really think that a lot of what I've learned in life has come from my parents.

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And I will also give a special shout out to my mom too because she has retinitis pigmentosa like I do.

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So I've grown up with a role model of how to live life and a lot of what I teach

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and a lot of the way that I live and I learned it from her you know and I get

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to have that blessing so I would definitely say my parents for sure.

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If you could give your 19 year old self some advice what would it be and do

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you think you would listen?

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The second part of that question is fantastic. Do I think I would listen?

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Actually, I think I probably would.

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I've always been fascinated with being a person of value.

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I used to live by this quote, try not to be a man of success,

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but rather a man of value.

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And that was always what I lived my life by.

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And it was how in high school you have that little quote next to

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your picture on your senior year you know that was my quote okay so

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judging off of that i think i would have wanted to learn from

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myself i hope i the

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advice that i would give myself is just to be patient

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and to not not to mean be patient as don't try and let everything come to you

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but work really hard but try to expect less and be patient with the progress

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because i'm actually really proud to to be where I am today.

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And I'm proud of the person that I am.

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And I think sometimes throughout my younger years, I wanted to do too much too soon.

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And I think if I took more time to just go, it's all happening,

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look at it happening and take a step back, I might even be farther along,

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and potentially not farther along, but more grounded within who I am and what

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I do and feel feel even a deeper sense of self-worth,

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which I already have a very strong sense of worth, but it can only be improved,

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you know? So I think that would be it.

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Great. You've reached the end of the contractually obligated questions.

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Cool. Good job. Yeah. Signed, sealed, delivered.

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Okay, so disability life coach. I also want to throw in there a musician,

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which I think is super cool too.

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So how do those two, what is a disability life coach? What does that mean?

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Essentially, the work I do is I help people with disabilities to live a confident life,

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to learn how to integrate their disability into their lives,

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to accept it, to live based off of what they desire and what they know that

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they need rather than the lies of what people say we're capable of.

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And for some people, that means really big goals. But other times,

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it just means asking for the accommodations that we need in life,

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asking Asking for or gaining the confidence

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to start using a mobility tool or a cane or to work through the process of going

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to the doctor or how to disclose your disability in the workplace or even how

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to disclose your disability when you're dating someone. All those different things come into play.

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But really, it's building up the core of who you are and feeling confident and

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proud in who you are, not despite your disability, but with it.

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And I do that through one-on-one programs, through a group program called Confidently

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Disabled. And I have people that I work with continually, like in a continuation program.

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And yeah, that's, I'd say, a good summary of what my work includes and what

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it does. Yes. How much does fear play a role in that coaching?

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I mean, everybody has fear in life, but it's harnessing that and knowing where

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the boundaries are, particularly,

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I guess, with people with disabilities, the fear of being discovered or being

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not enough or you are less of a person, all those kinds of things.

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I mean, as a guy with a disability myself, which my My disabilities are mostly invisible to others.

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So there is the question about when do I disclose? How do I disclose?

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Is it, do I need to disclose ever in certain circumstances? Yeah.

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Are these types of things that come out in coaching sessions with you and the

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people that you work with? Yeah, definitely.

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I'd say a lot of this stuff is maybe halfway through a program or a little bit

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later on with how to disclose or what to say and what not to say.

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First thing that we need to do is we need

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to get really clear on what thoughts

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and belief systems are our own

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and what have been guided through societal norms

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through ableism and what of that have you internalized to believe about yourself

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that maybe you think i'm not good enough i'm not a partner that someone would

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want to be with because of my disability or no one wants to to hire me because

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of my disability or, you know.

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Maybe I shouldn't take a step out and really show my full authentic self because

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people will reject it and they won't accommodate for what I actually need.

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These are all belief systems, some of which are built upon experiences and traumas

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that have happened that are real.

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And it's about identifying and differentiating what those trauma-informed belief

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systems are and what the true belief systems of what you're capable are.

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And once you've separated those two things and you make it really clear,

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then it's easier to compartmentalize the fear and to look at it as,

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okay, I'm so glad that I know what I'm afraid of here.

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And how can I strategically take steps to work through it at a pace that is

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comfortable and doable for me? And that is something that I think a lot of people struggle with.

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They look at the goal and they look at where they are and they go, I can't do it.

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It looks too big. And my job is to help create steps that are small enough and

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actionable enough that they can take steps over time to get there.

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How does coaching compare to therapy?

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What's the difference? Yeah. So therapy is really built around talking and working

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through the trauma in our lives to get to a point where we may not repeat those actions over time.

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And a lot of times a therapist's job is to help us understand and help us learn

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on our own. What I mean by that is one of the biggest questions that a therapist

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will act is, and how does that make you feel?

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What do you think about that? Because

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they're guiding you to your own self-reflection and self-realization.

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And I actually am a big fan of this. And I'm in therapy myself.

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I have been for years. I deeply believe in it.

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And I also believe in people giving giving us direct advice and systems.

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I think the two of those things together are really important.

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That's what coaching is more of.

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Feedback. This is what's going on. Okay. Are you ready for some feedback and

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some next steps? If the answer is yes, great. Here's what we're going to do.

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I think we need to identify these things. I think we need to take actions here.

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We need to stop doing this, more of that, whatever it might be so that there's

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a clear path and a plan forward that you can start acting on.

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So coaching is more action-based and solution-driven.

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And therapy, even though it is solution-driven, is more of a a self-discovery

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experience that you're guided in a safe space where coaching can sometimes even

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feel more intense because I'm asking you to step out of your comfort zone,

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you know, and it's an agreement between each other to do that.

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Okay. And so you mentioned therapy that you've done over the years.

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Your disability, I suspect, has a lot to do with the need for that therapy.

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Kind of explain RP, retinitis pigmentosa, also called RP for short,

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to somebody that maybe doesn't understand what that means.

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Totally. And I actually want to take a step back and say that I've actually

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not spent a lot of time in therapy talking about my vision loss because by the

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time that I actually went into therapy,

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I had already accepted and built up self-worth around my blindness.

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I'd been using my cane for years.

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And I think a lot of that is to do with the fact that I have family members

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that have the same thing that I do.

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And that is retinitis pigmentosa, which is essentially a degenerative disease

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that runs in my family. It's a dominant gene.

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And it means that you got a 50-50 coin flip of whether or not you're going to

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have it. And you lose your peripheral vision over time.

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So I see like I'm looking through a straw at this point. I have 4% of my vision remaining.

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And I also have night blindness because of it. So I don't see anything in the dark.

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Obviously, if there's a light, I see the light. But if it's completely dark.

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Your eyes would adjust. Mine never do.

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And then I've got tons of other fun things that come along with it,

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like cataracts and sensitivity to the light and floaters and all,

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you know, you name it, right?

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I'm a little bit colorblind and things that I discover every single day that

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are new. And, you know, I go, wow, that's unique.

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And then I, you know, adapt to it and work through it.

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But that's a pretty general description of retinitis. One of those cool things

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that you got passed down through your family.

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Yeah, it's just for me, I look at it as something that's a part of my life and it makes me who I am.

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You know, I don't look at it as a burden. There's moments that it does challenge me greatly. And,

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I've gotten to a place in my life where I'm excited about those challenges.

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That's good. The podcast used to be called Ambiguously Blind.

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And some of the posts I've seen from you and some of the things I know about

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you, you can relate to being ambiguously blind or, you know,

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like this is an audio only podcast.

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Charlie and I are both wearing glasses. I mean, other than being devastatingly

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handsome, we're both wearing glasses, which I think would boggle the mind of

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some people that if you told them that you were blind, but but you're wearing corrective lenses.

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How do you explain that, Charlie? Well, it depends if I want to explain it or not.

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This is a scenario that I definitely will, but something I work on with my own

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life and also with other people is the freedom to be like, sometimes it's none

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of anyone's business and that's okay.

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If somebody comes up to me and says, wow, I see that you're using a cane and

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you're also wearing glasses.

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And I was just so curious if you could tell me about that.

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It depends on whether or not I'm going to answer that question.

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Sometimes I just want my coffee and I'm going to be like, hey,

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thanks so much for asking the question. I really appreciate your curiosity.

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I'm not open to talking about it right now, but follow me on Instagram if you

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want to learn more or maybe another time or thanks so much.

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And my name's Charlie, by the way, and talk to you. See you later.

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And end the conversation.

221
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So sometimes I'll do that that because I don't have to be a walking description

222
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and lesson point for people.

223
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And sometimes I'm open to it and I want to answer.

224
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And obviously this is one of those moments we're talking about it,

225
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but I just wanted to give that example and that freedom to people because I

226
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think it's really important.

227
00:15:52,915 --> 00:15:55,375
Yeah. And I think it's important that you also, you don't have to,

228
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you know, you may, we may be the only person that somebody meets that has RP

229
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or some sort a visual impairment.

230
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So there's also a little bit of a balance there where I don't.

231
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Necessarily want to give the wrong impression about a person that has a visual

232
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impairment or something.

233
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But at the same time, I don't, you know, like you just said,

234
00:16:16,104 --> 00:16:17,104
I'm just here to get my coffee.

235
00:16:17,384 --> 00:16:21,504
So I have to go and I don't, you know, this is probably a longer,

236
00:16:21,584 --> 00:16:25,644
this takes a lot longer to actually talk about probably than what I have time

237
00:16:25,644 --> 00:16:29,284
for right now. Like this is, I'm going, you're probably going.

238
00:16:29,944 --> 00:16:33,944
So let's, you know, here, here's how to connect with me. Let's,

239
00:16:33,944 --> 00:16:37,524
let's talk about it some other time. Sure. But that's if you're open to it.

240
00:16:37,944 --> 00:16:43,144
Sorry to interrupt. I would say that's if you want to take on that responsibility

241
00:16:43,144 --> 00:16:48,264
where I think sometimes people get confused where if you do have a disability,

242
00:16:48,584 --> 00:16:52,564
it doesn't mean that you have to be a spokesperson for your disability if you don't want to be.

243
00:16:52,704 --> 00:16:58,084
Now, I think you and I are people that enjoy that. And so oftentimes I will answer.

244
00:16:58,524 --> 00:17:01,884
And my answer, if they're asking about my glasses, I go, you know,

245
00:17:01,884 --> 00:17:03,704
I see like I'm looking through a straw.

246
00:17:03,824 --> 00:17:07,824
The glasses correct what's in the straw. It's helpful. They turn into sunglasses.

247
00:17:08,404 --> 00:17:12,584
Thanks for asking. Have a great day. And no matter what, however I respond,

248
00:17:12,704 --> 00:17:17,164
it's just with kindness and openness and, you know, gratitude for the good intentions.

249
00:17:17,984 --> 00:17:21,424
Yeah. It's like all the emails have been exchanging your signatures, sending love.

250
00:17:21,824 --> 00:17:25,704
So I definitely get that aura, that vibe from you. So I don't imagine you're

251
00:17:25,704 --> 00:17:27,724
going to, you know, irritate anybody.

252
00:17:27,864 --> 00:17:32,424
But at the same time, you're right. Just because it doesn't even have to be a disability.

253
00:17:32,684 --> 00:17:36,024
Somebody could ask anybody a question and you just aren't in the mood to answer

254
00:17:36,024 --> 00:17:38,964
or you just don't feel like you... We have privacy, right?

255
00:17:39,084 --> 00:17:42,084
We don't have to talk about everything. We're not on the couch all the time.

256
00:17:42,284 --> 00:17:49,144
And maybe we're not ready to get that deep or unveil that part of our life to just a random person.

257
00:17:49,744 --> 00:17:53,444
Definitely. And some things are private. But it's interesting, right?

258
00:17:53,504 --> 00:17:59,944
This is the invisible disability aspect. suspect because if you go up to someone

259
00:17:59,944 --> 00:18:03,264
and you say, hey, so I heard you went to the doctor recently.

260
00:18:03,424 --> 00:18:05,804
How was that doctor visit? What's your medical history like?

261
00:18:06,484 --> 00:18:09,864
That's not what you would ask somebody, right? That's very abnormal.

262
00:18:10,384 --> 00:18:13,304
But that's essentially what you're asking when you say, hey,

263
00:18:13,444 --> 00:18:15,964
I noticed you're blind. Tell me your life story.

264
00:18:16,244 --> 00:18:17,424
You're like, well, let me open

265
00:18:17,424 --> 00:18:21,844
up my medical file. So I think if you think about it that way, it's okay.

266
00:18:21,944 --> 00:18:25,884
So if you ask, no worries, is just be open to the fact that they might not want

267
00:18:25,884 --> 00:18:27,264
to answer and that's okay.

268
00:18:27,564 --> 00:18:30,984
And, you know, it's no big deal in either direction.

269
00:18:31,264 --> 00:18:36,944
Yeah, I think kind of on that same trajectory there, are there things in general

270
00:18:36,944 --> 00:18:40,904
working with people with disabilities or in particular sight loss,

271
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are there things that you wish people knew.

272
00:18:44,424 --> 00:18:47,384
About people with a disability or with sight loss?

273
00:18:47,384 --> 00:18:53,604
Yeah, I think a lot of people assume that sight loss is the same for everyone,

274
00:18:53,764 --> 00:18:58,084
that it looks the same or that the experiences are the same.

275
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And that's just not the case.

276
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I also want people to get really comfortable with the idea that.

277
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People are allowed to use canes or mobility tools, even if they can still see

278
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something. I think that's a really big one.

279
00:19:11,859 --> 00:19:18,239
The thought process of, well, you either have to have no sight or you can't

280
00:19:18,239 --> 00:19:23,539
use the cane is wild to me because it helps me so much.

281
00:19:23,579 --> 00:19:26,879
I want people to understand that's no big deal and to not think,

282
00:19:26,939 --> 00:19:28,959
oh, he's taking advantage or he's faking it.

283
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:34,999
No, I'm using this so I don't run you over in the middle of the street. You should be grateful.

284
00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:40,679
And then the other thing too is that just because someone has a disability doesn't

285
00:19:40,679 --> 00:19:44,679
mean they automatically want pity or that you should feel sorry for them because

286
00:19:44,679 --> 00:19:47,079
a lot of us with disabilities are used to it.

287
00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:52,959
And again, it's an integrated part of our lives that sometimes can be challenging

288
00:19:52,959 --> 00:19:58,259
and can pose different problems, but it's not always a problem.

289
00:19:58,459 --> 00:20:03,019
It's not always a challenge, and it doesn't overwhelm our thoughts every day.

290
00:20:03,019 --> 00:20:06,439
Now, for some people in the beginning or different moments, it does.

291
00:20:06,559 --> 00:20:11,259
And that's when you would want that person to work with a professional, a coach or a therapist.

292
00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:15,579
But most of the time, we're just doing our thing. You know, we're living life

293
00:20:15,579 --> 00:20:18,779
and we're enjoying and we're doing things differently.

294
00:20:19,379 --> 00:20:23,119
But different is not always worse. And I think it doesn't also,

295
00:20:23,219 --> 00:20:27,679
at least for me, mean that we always need help or always want help anyway.

296
00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:31,419
You know, we do things differently and sometimes we're very comfortable with

297
00:20:31,419 --> 00:20:35,339
how we do things. just like people like the way they have routines and do things.

298
00:20:35,739 --> 00:20:40,259
And I feel like there's been times where somebody's offered help to me and I've

299
00:20:40,259 --> 00:20:42,159
refused it politely, of course.

300
00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:49,440
And I feel like they have a like, wow, guys, disingenuous or he doesn't appreciate

301
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,480
anything I'm doing or I'm trying to help the guy and he doesn't want help.

302
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:57,540
But I mean, independence is a big thing for anybody, but particularly people,

303
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,340
and at least speaking for myself, that I value my independence.

304
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:06,260
And there certainly are things I need help with and occasionally ask help for

305
00:21:06,260 --> 00:21:07,100
and all that kind of stuff.

306
00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:13,740
You know, that happens. happens, but I wish that people would respect a no and

307
00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:16,180
just kind of move on with it. I agree.

308
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,380
That's a big one. I really am very glad that you said it. I'm curious how you

309
00:21:21,380 --> 00:21:24,060
feel when somebody says, are you sure?

310
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,100
Are you sure? A bunch of times. Does that irk you as much as it irks me?

311
00:21:28,180 --> 00:21:30,280
So it's like, you know, I mean, again, this is where do we have,

312
00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:31,360
how much time do we have here?

313
00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:33,820
Right. With this person I'm standing next to, I don't, do you have the next

314
00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:37,320
25 minutes for me to give you my whole life story and tell you what I've been

315
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:43,340
through and what I've been doing. So, yeah, I mean, and sometimes it's weird,

316
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,340
too, because those things can come from people that, you know, really well.

317
00:21:46,820 --> 00:21:50,960
Right. Right. Could be a partner or a sister or a brother or a parent or somebody

318
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,480
that really just just really wants to just help you.

319
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,320
But at the same time, you know, I just got to do this my way.

320
00:21:57,380 --> 00:21:59,020
I want to do the way I want to do what I'm doing.

321
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,440
And this is just how I do it. And I know there's probably an easier way to do it.

322
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,540
But this is what I do and sometimes it's

323
00:22:06,540 --> 00:22:09,340
hard to maybe the closer the person is

324
00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:12,240
to you it's the harder it is to push them away or say no

325
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,800
because just out of love they they want but help but there's there's a respect

326
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,460
thing that you have to have and stand up for yourself and sometimes that's I

327
00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:28,140
found it difficult to I found the no answer to be difficult for them to receive

328
00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:31,960
that and And it's like, I don't understand this. What's going on here?

329
00:22:32,260 --> 00:22:37,820
I couldn't agree more. And the way that I like to explain it to people is building a puzzle.

330
00:22:38,820 --> 00:22:41,640
Sometimes you want help with the puzzle.

331
00:22:42,604 --> 00:22:46,984
But most of the time, you don't want to hand someone the puzzle that you just

332
00:22:46,984 --> 00:22:50,504
bought, have them go build it for you, frame it, and bring it back.

333
00:22:50,744 --> 00:22:53,424
That's not why you bought the puzzle. No, that is not why you bought the puzzle.

334
00:22:53,544 --> 00:22:54,684
That's not why they bought the puzzle.

335
00:22:54,784 --> 00:23:02,864
So I want people to get comfortable with allowing people to work through their own puzzles in life.

336
00:23:03,464 --> 00:23:07,304
I like that. That's good. And really be understanding of that.

337
00:23:07,424 --> 00:23:12,644
Because for me, when I'm walking around and banging my cane against things, like I'm having a blast.

338
00:23:12,804 --> 00:23:17,104
I'm figuring it out, you know? Don't turn the lights on. Like I am learning

339
00:23:17,104 --> 00:23:21,964
how to use my cane right now in a way that I never have before maybe. And I'm enjoying it.

340
00:23:23,084 --> 00:23:25,944
So if you say, let me turn the lights on. I say, no, I'm enjoying this.

341
00:23:25,984 --> 00:23:29,284
Like, no, really, it'll be easier. No, the answer is no.

342
00:23:29,524 --> 00:23:32,824
Because there could be a time where they're not there to turn the lights on.

343
00:23:32,984 --> 00:23:36,684
Exactly. And you need to know what to do in those situations,

344
00:23:36,804 --> 00:23:39,524
not to mention that you just want to be able to put the puzzle together yourself,

345
00:23:39,764 --> 00:23:41,704
which like you said, that's why I got the puzzle to begin with.

346
00:23:41,844 --> 00:23:43,564
That's why I got the puzzle, right?

347
00:23:43,804 --> 00:23:47,044
Yeah, 100%. And you're talking about the white cane. What is your relationship

348
00:23:47,044 --> 00:23:50,024
with the white cane been? Was it an immediate acceptance?

349
00:23:50,604 --> 00:23:56,484
Was there a journey for that? Or how did that work for you? Big journey. Big journey.

350
00:23:57,684 --> 00:24:02,544
My family, as I know I've given them a lot of praise in this podcast,

351
00:24:02,544 --> 00:24:04,824
I will also say that my family,

352
00:24:04,984 --> 00:24:08,884
built into societal norms and expectations and ableism,

353
00:24:09,024 --> 00:24:14,364
I would say have learned to assimilate and act like their disabilities are invisible

354
00:24:14,364 --> 00:24:20,204
more than stand out and be authentically what they are and who they need to

355
00:24:20,204 --> 00:24:21,244
be with their disabilities.

356
00:24:21,604 --> 00:24:25,844
So what that has meant is that instead of using a cane,

357
00:24:26,084 --> 00:24:32,004
they've hung onto the arm of their partner or walked around and acted like they

358
00:24:32,004 --> 00:24:35,544
could see things or aggressively look at the ground and try and scan and move

359
00:24:35,544 --> 00:24:40,824
really quickly or do more than they actually could to make it seem like they were okay.

360
00:24:41,504 --> 00:24:44,204
But everyone, you're like, we're not fooling anyone, right?

361
00:24:44,324 --> 00:24:51,464
So I have aunts and uncles and even times my mom at different moments had tried to do that.

362
00:24:51,504 --> 00:24:55,104
But I will say that she's gone on a journey of using her cane more often and

363
00:24:55,104 --> 00:24:57,824
has always used it a little bit more than others in the family.

364
00:24:58,084 --> 00:25:02,524
And I went through that same journey. I just wanted to be a normal teenager.

365
00:25:03,044 --> 00:25:08,704
I had my moments of wanting to be in my 20s and go out at night and not have to hang on to my friends.

366
00:25:09,064 --> 00:25:12,624
And eventually, I got to a place where I realized, what am I doing here?

367
00:25:13,584 --> 00:25:18,924
This is ridiculous. Just use the cane and enjoy it. And honestly,

368
00:25:19,144 --> 00:25:25,444
ever since I've made that shift, my life has infinitely improved on so many levels.

369
00:25:25,604 --> 00:25:30,324
And I think people would automatically think, wow, it must be so easy to navigate.

370
00:25:30,484 --> 00:25:33,544
That's the biggest difference. That's probably the smallest amount of impact.

371
00:25:34,637 --> 00:25:39,677
The biggest amount of impact has been my connection to my identity with my disability,

372
00:25:40,017 --> 00:25:46,377
my self-worth, my self-confidence, my knowingness in who I am.

373
00:25:46,637 --> 00:25:51,117
All those things have skyrocketed. And with that, opportunities in life have

374
00:25:51,117 --> 00:25:54,737
come too, because I'm putting out better energy into the world because I feel

375
00:25:54,737 --> 00:25:57,497
I have a better relationship to myself and my disability.

376
00:25:57,857 --> 00:26:01,777
And that's been my story and my journey with it. But for some people,

377
00:26:01,897 --> 00:26:06,357
the most authentic thing to do is to not use a cane or a mobility tool.

378
00:26:06,397 --> 00:26:08,697
And that's fine. It really depends.

379
00:26:09,477 --> 00:26:13,177
But I've loved it. And a lot of people call it a white cane.

380
00:26:13,357 --> 00:26:18,177
I have every color of the rainbow of a cane. So I tend to call it a blind cane

381
00:26:18,177 --> 00:26:22,297
or only a white cane when I'm using it because it can be confusing if I'm using

382
00:26:22,297 --> 00:26:25,257
a blue or a black or a green cane and I call it a white cane.

383
00:26:25,357 --> 00:26:27,477
They're like, what are you talking about? It's green.

384
00:26:27,697 --> 00:26:30,517
Or you could just say, well, I'm blind. So you tell me what color.

385
00:26:30,597 --> 00:26:33,557
It is that's right yeah what about you similar

386
00:26:33,557 --> 00:26:37,017
story so i don't really use one vision

387
00:26:37,017 --> 00:26:40,857
the whole spectrum thing is pretty for

388
00:26:40,857 --> 00:26:46,817
me it would be an identification so it would be so others know i can see just

389
00:26:46,817 --> 00:26:50,557
enough to be dangerous is what i like to say totally blind in my right eye and

390
00:26:50,557 --> 00:26:52,897
have about 2300 in my my left eye

391
00:26:52,897 --> 00:26:58,157
and i mean i ride a bike by myself which boggle you know it's It's like,

392
00:26:58,197 --> 00:27:02,297
he's wearing corrective lenses and he's riding a bike. The guy's not blind.

393
00:27:03,857 --> 00:27:07,417
So probably the biggest thing, like if I'm standing at Starbucks and I'm waiting

394
00:27:07,417 --> 00:27:12,237
for my drink and I have a cane in my hand, it's pretty easy for me to get assistance

395
00:27:12,237 --> 00:27:14,837
in finding the cup that has my name on it, right?

396
00:27:15,177 --> 00:27:20,557
If I'm crossing the street as a pedestrian, it's pretty easy for cars to understand

397
00:27:20,557 --> 00:27:23,757
that this guy doesn't see very well or not at all.

398
00:27:23,757 --> 00:27:26,497
Other than that there's not been a

399
00:27:26,497 --> 00:27:30,157
ton of benefits in my life to to use

400
00:27:30,157 --> 00:27:33,097
the cane so you know i think

401
00:27:33,097 --> 00:27:36,577
when i'm in public areas airports places where

402
00:27:36,577 --> 00:27:41,217
i've got to explain things that aren't obvious that's where it comes in handy

403
00:27:41,217 --> 00:27:46,317
for as an identification but for getting around most places you know i guess

404
00:27:46,317 --> 00:27:51,737
for the most part i'm okay but i do recognize that i think in kind of what you

405
00:27:51,737 --> 00:27:54,597
described or maybe another way to say it is we talked about independence earlier.

406
00:27:55,217 --> 00:27:59,817
I think the white cane can be a tremendous source of independence.

407
00:28:00,357 --> 00:28:05,497
It is, yeah. For somebody that uses it. Have you experienced that? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

408
00:28:06,352 --> 00:28:12,552
I'm a very independent person and all the work that I've done travel-wise throughout

409
00:28:12,552 --> 00:28:14,512
my life, I've pretty much done it by myself.

410
00:28:14,932 --> 00:28:19,832
I navigate through airports and through different cities, and I've even gone

411
00:28:19,832 --> 00:28:26,452
on a vacation to Ireland and England by myself, completely alone.

412
00:28:26,672 --> 00:28:31,672
I went for two weeks to Europe by myself two years ago when my vision was pretty

413
00:28:31,672 --> 00:28:32,752
similar to what it is now.

414
00:28:33,152 --> 00:28:36,292
And I don't think I could have done that without my cane.

415
00:28:36,472 --> 00:28:39,952
Now, there's still moments where people came up to me and grabbed me or tried

416
00:28:39,952 --> 00:28:44,072
to help me when I didn't need it. But for the most part, it helped me.

417
00:28:44,632 --> 00:28:50,752
It just gives me a sense of confidence and structure and foundation that I personally really like.

418
00:28:51,272 --> 00:28:57,272
But again, that's me. I've found that sometimes Sometimes independence can also

419
00:28:57,272 --> 00:29:00,452
come as like a fight to keep what you had.

420
00:29:00,612 --> 00:29:04,532
Like I want what I've always known and I don't want to let go,

421
00:29:04,732 --> 00:29:06,152
right? Like grasping on.

422
00:29:06,412 --> 00:29:10,172
Sure. Yeah. And you know, that can, that can happen in both directions.

423
00:29:10,192 --> 00:29:13,672
Like sometimes I need to let go of my cane and do something without it.

424
00:29:13,712 --> 00:29:15,252
And I feel like I don't want to let go. Right.

425
00:29:15,812 --> 00:29:19,852
Or the other way of like, I don't want to use my cane right now. Like I don't need it.

426
00:29:20,192 --> 00:29:24,652
I don't need it. And sometimes I struggle with that when I go to friends' houses

427
00:29:24,652 --> 00:29:29,312
or someone's house for dinner or something like that, because in my home,

428
00:29:29,332 --> 00:29:31,912
I don't use my cane. I know where everything is. I don't need it.

429
00:29:32,152 --> 00:29:35,512
But when I walk into someone else's home, the last thing I want to do is knock

430
00:29:35,512 --> 00:29:38,472
over their great aunt Sally. That would be bad.

431
00:29:39,332 --> 00:29:45,232
That would not be good. so I've learned even though it's really uncomfortable

432
00:29:45,232 --> 00:29:48,872
that's probably the point where I'm like I don't want to use my cane right now

433
00:29:48,872 --> 00:29:54,172
I use it in the beginning to at least map it and that was a big transition for

434
00:29:54,172 --> 00:29:57,512
me yeah I can relate to that particularly.

435
00:29:58,746 --> 00:30:03,046
Something else that you do, and I guess it's in the coaching or whatever realm

436
00:30:03,046 --> 00:30:06,826
you work in, is the singing in the dark as we transition to music.

437
00:30:06,966 --> 00:30:11,246
So I am enamored by your music. And we do have a song. You've given us a song to play.

438
00:30:11,306 --> 00:30:15,806
We'll play it at the end of the episode here, Vision, which is a super cool song.

439
00:30:15,886 --> 00:30:18,346
I've been jamming out to for the last couple of days now.

440
00:30:18,926 --> 00:30:24,606
No, thanks. Talk to me about singing in the dark and how you incorporate that

441
00:30:24,606 --> 00:30:27,566
into your approach to coaching and speaking. speaking.

442
00:30:28,246 --> 00:30:33,106
Definitely. Well, in a way, we almost have to reverse engineer because the music

443
00:30:33,106 --> 00:30:35,066
came before the coaching.

444
00:30:35,426 --> 00:30:40,366
So I grew up in the Jewish world and the reformed Jewish world.

445
00:30:40,466 --> 00:30:44,686
So I grew up going to summer camp and Jewish summer camp and my synagogue.

446
00:30:44,746 --> 00:30:47,426
And there was always someone playing the guitar. I learned how to play the guitar.

447
00:30:47,646 --> 00:30:51,766
And they said, hey, why don't you just play while we're doing this stuff?

448
00:30:52,066 --> 00:30:55,246
And I said, great, that's going to be way more fun than just just being here.

449
00:30:55,366 --> 00:31:01,586
And I eventually learned to love it and started to connect with my spirituality in a big way.

450
00:31:01,726 --> 00:31:07,386
And I began writing music and then I would travel around to different communities

451
00:31:07,386 --> 00:31:09,786
and organizations and share that music.

452
00:31:10,026 --> 00:31:16,406
And eventually, I learned and realized that I wasn't being my full authentic

453
00:31:16,406 --> 00:31:20,086
self as a musician or as a person because I wasn't integrating my blindness.

454
00:31:20,206 --> 00:31:21,906
So So everything was kind of connecting.

455
00:31:22,026 --> 00:31:26,426
I was traveling to different places, sharing my music with them and telling

456
00:31:26,426 --> 00:31:27,946
no one about my vision loss.

457
00:31:28,066 --> 00:31:31,346
They had no idea. I wasn't using a cane, nothing. No one had any idea.

458
00:31:31,726 --> 00:31:38,546
So eventually, I gained the confidence in myself to stand out there.

459
00:31:38,606 --> 00:31:44,366
And then I started integrating my blindness and my vision loss into my music and started,

460
00:31:44,954 --> 00:31:50,234
The first way that I did that was by creating a blindfolded singing and healing

461
00:31:50,234 --> 00:31:52,154
experience called Singing in the Dark.

462
00:31:52,874 --> 00:31:58,334
Essentially what it is, it's 45 minutes to an hour of people with blindfolds on.

463
00:31:58,574 --> 00:32:02,214
They are guided into the space, so they don't know what the room looks like.

464
00:32:02,274 --> 00:32:05,874
I'm already in there with other musicians potentially or just myself,

465
00:32:06,054 --> 00:32:09,314
and I'm playing music and guiding them in.

466
00:32:09,554 --> 00:32:12,554
And there's people actually guiding them in the way that you're supposed to

467
00:32:12,554 --> 00:32:15,614
guide people who are blind or visually impaired. They get sat down.

468
00:32:15,754 --> 00:32:20,054
They have no idea where they are. And then for the next hour to 45 minutes to

469
00:32:20,054 --> 00:32:24,734
an hour, I basically take them through a musical experience where the music

470
00:32:24,734 --> 00:32:28,314
is almost there to bring them into the room because they think it's going to be about the music.

471
00:32:28,494 --> 00:32:34,434
But really, it's about learning how to sing in the dark. How do we learn to

472
00:32:34,434 --> 00:32:40,594
use our negative experiences and our challenges in our lives to bring lessons

473
00:32:40,594 --> 00:32:43,154
and opportunities for growth?

474
00:32:43,454 --> 00:32:48,494
And that's what I've done to guide people through that. So at this point,

475
00:32:48,514 --> 00:32:51,854
with that teaching, I was already a certified mindfulness instructor.

476
00:32:52,214 --> 00:32:56,614
I'd been leading spiritual communities for a long time. And through that experience

477
00:32:56,614 --> 00:33:00,534
of singing in the dark, I really learned that my biggest passion in life was

478
00:33:00,534 --> 00:33:03,994
helping people to unlock their greatness.

479
00:33:04,514 --> 00:33:08,874
And then I realized, I've been in this Jewish space for so long.

480
00:33:09,234 --> 00:33:15,134
It's been so beautiful for me, but I want to help other people with disabilities

481
00:33:15,134 --> 00:33:20,614
that I saw all around me, even my family, that are struggling to just say,

482
00:33:20,774 --> 00:33:23,034
hey, this is me, and I'm cool with that.

483
00:33:23,034 --> 00:33:25,714
And that's where the coaching journey began.

484
00:33:25,854 --> 00:33:30,714
And I got certified and trained in coaching and improved skill sets.

485
00:33:30,834 --> 00:33:34,034
And then it's really taken off from there. And now it's my full-time work.

486
00:33:34,154 --> 00:33:38,634
So I still travel and go to different communities and I'll do Singing in the Dark.

487
00:33:38,754 --> 00:33:42,254
And I've done Singing in the Dark for a thousand people in 25.

488
00:33:42,654 --> 00:33:47,274
The spectrum is super wide. And I'd say each time is powerful and amazing because

489
00:33:47,274 --> 00:33:51,834
you get to feel in the room without seeing it what people are going through.

490
00:33:52,034 --> 00:33:56,874
And they get to make space for the growth that they want to achieve in their

491
00:33:56,874 --> 00:34:01,034
life without having to have people watch them go through that experience.

492
00:34:01,334 --> 00:34:04,474
But then they're also surrounded by everyone doing that at the same time.

493
00:34:04,594 --> 00:34:07,154
So it's very communal. And it's also very personal.

494
00:34:07,714 --> 00:34:10,574
And I love it. I love doing Singing in the Dark to this day.

495
00:34:10,574 --> 00:34:12,814
So do you think music is the key there?

496
00:34:12,934 --> 00:34:17,594
I mean, I just I'm a music dork. I love music. And it is music.

497
00:34:17,754 --> 00:34:20,454
What opens the door for that? You think?

498
00:34:20,714 --> 00:34:22,754
I think that's what people believe.

499
00:34:23,294 --> 00:34:28,854
But to me, what really opens the door is the silence after the music.

500
00:34:29,912 --> 00:34:34,332
So once the door is opened and they walk in the room and the door is shut,

501
00:34:34,472 --> 00:34:39,512
speaking metaphorically right now, not necessarily exactly how the program goes,

502
00:34:39,632 --> 00:34:43,872
but once you open the door, which is the music, and you go inside and you shut

503
00:34:43,872 --> 00:34:45,332
the door, and then you're there with yourself,

504
00:34:45,572 --> 00:34:50,032
you can't look around, and you're in that moment, and you're present,

505
00:34:50,112 --> 00:34:51,572
and everyone else is there.

506
00:34:51,632 --> 00:34:54,572
There's this silence and connection within the room.

507
00:34:54,832 --> 00:34:59,472
Once that first moment hits, probably about three to five minutes into the experience.

508
00:35:00,412 --> 00:35:02,572
Something flips for everyone.

509
00:35:02,992 --> 00:35:07,072
And there's an energy that's created where we're safe now.

510
00:35:07,232 --> 00:35:12,092
We can go in and we can go deep. And really, it's those moments where I talk

511
00:35:12,092 --> 00:35:17,792
through things and I share my darkest moments and teach people how to overcome

512
00:35:17,792 --> 00:35:19,352
the different challenges in their lives.

513
00:35:19,472 --> 00:35:24,632
And they're not watching themselves or worrying about other people watching them.

514
00:35:24,812 --> 00:35:29,512
There's this It's this freedom that cracks them open and the music in a way

515
00:35:29,512 --> 00:35:31,392
gives space in between those moments.

516
00:35:31,452 --> 00:35:35,752
It's like the break, you know, it gives them the freedom to take a deep breath.

517
00:35:36,052 --> 00:35:40,572
But I wouldn't say that the music itself itself is the thing that cracks them

518
00:35:40,572 --> 00:35:42,552
open. I think it's the doorway.

519
00:35:43,292 --> 00:35:47,552
Yeah. Coupled with coupled with the blindfold. I think you said it a couple

520
00:35:47,552 --> 00:35:51,072
of times, like they're not worried about what people are thinking of them because

521
00:35:51,072 --> 00:35:55,212
they're not looking at them or how they're acting or what their expression may be.

522
00:35:55,512 --> 00:35:59,252
It's everybody's on an equal playing field. I mean, everybody was on an equal

523
00:35:59,252 --> 00:36:01,252
playing field when they walked in for the most part, I guess.

524
00:36:01,252 --> 00:36:06,832
But like, yeah, one of these major senses has been removed and that allows someone to.

525
00:36:07,820 --> 00:36:10,880
I guess, dance like no one's looking kind of sense, right? Exactly.

526
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:17,760
Yeah. And to see themselves and look at inside themselves in ways that they may not do.

527
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,520
Because even if you try and think about yourself and focus for a little bit,

528
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,700
there's so many distractions in life, even for people who are blind, right?

529
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,620
Forget about what you see, but, oh, I hear a dog barking outside or,

530
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,380
oh my God, what's that siren? It's so easy to get distracted.

531
00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:38,440
But when you're in a safe place like that, where your sight is gone and everyone's

532
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,480
focused, you actually have an opportunity to go within.

533
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,080
Yeah, that's great. I love it. Yeah, I need to be at one of those experiences,

534
00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:47,720
Charlie. Let's do it. You're invited.

535
00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:51,580
Let's match up our schedules here, right? Okay, great.

536
00:36:51,740 --> 00:36:56,800
So I've had Hobie Wedler on the podcast before, and he does a similar thing.

537
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:57,700
It's Tasting in the Dark.

538
00:36:57,780 --> 00:37:00,760
And Hobie is a scientist. He's totally blind.

539
00:37:00,940 --> 00:37:03,960
He's a master master scientist i mean he's got taste down

540
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,520
like you can't believe and he was telling me a

541
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,540
story about how he had a group of like i'll just

542
00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:15,720
say maybe around a hundred or so sommeliers the wine experts like this group

543
00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:21,680
of wine experts and they were pairing music so he had everybody blindfolded

544
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:28,720
and these are wine experts and they gave them songs to they had like four wines,

545
00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:31,020
or four glasses of wine.

546
00:37:31,460 --> 00:37:33,640
And the first three were different.

547
00:37:34,340 --> 00:37:37,680
But the fourth one was the same as one of the others.

548
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:40,920
And I think actually, I think it was the same as the third one,

549
00:37:40,980 --> 00:37:43,600
like the one right before it. But they changed the song.

550
00:37:44,811 --> 00:37:50,671
Between those two and the descriptions that they gave of what the wine was totally

551
00:37:50,671 --> 00:37:52,531
different, like couldn't have been more different.

552
00:37:52,691 --> 00:37:56,051
And then once it's revealed that you just had the same wine two times in a row,

553
00:37:56,211 --> 00:37:57,671
like their minds were blown.

554
00:37:58,091 --> 00:38:00,971
So I think that the concept of,

555
00:38:00,991 --> 00:38:07,311
of the blindfold paired with the music and just the experience of that can just

556
00:38:07,311 --> 00:38:13,571
totally shift your thoughts or make you think of things just completely different.

557
00:38:13,671 --> 00:38:15,931
And I think that's, unbelievably powerful.

558
00:38:16,431 --> 00:38:21,111
Yeah. I like to even think of it too, is just when you zoom out of the experience

559
00:38:21,111 --> 00:38:23,751
and just think of, I'll just go my life.

560
00:38:24,071 --> 00:38:28,091
I get to do that all the time because there's so many moments that I can't see.

561
00:38:28,491 --> 00:38:33,011
And I have had to go inward and really ask myself those big questions because

562
00:38:33,011 --> 00:38:34,191
there's nothing else going on.

563
00:38:34,691 --> 00:38:39,971
And to me, that has been a tremendous opportunity that It has helped me grow

564
00:38:39,971 --> 00:38:44,691
and really gain clarity on what I want to do in my life and what I'm passionate about.

565
00:38:45,151 --> 00:38:51,531
And to me, it's been a huge gift. So that's why I say there's challenges that

566
00:38:51,531 --> 00:38:54,011
come with being blind, but there's also opportunities too.

567
00:38:54,171 --> 00:38:57,671
And it's really about getting comfortable enough with it so that you can be

568
00:38:57,671 --> 00:38:59,251
open to those different opportunities.

569
00:39:00,011 --> 00:39:06,071
Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the coaching thing. Who needs Charlie in their life?

570
00:39:06,271 --> 00:39:08,891
What's the person look like? What are they going through? Drew?

571
00:39:08,911 --> 00:39:15,571
Where are they in life that Charlie swoops in and takes care of and turns things around for us?

572
00:39:16,071 --> 00:39:22,211
Well, that's sweet. One thing I would say is that I always tell my clients whenever

573
00:39:22,211 --> 00:39:28,091
they're graduating from a program that it's not me that actually got them into

574
00:39:28,091 --> 00:39:29,071
the place that they are now.

575
00:39:29,251 --> 00:39:32,271
It's all the work and dedication that they put in. So the first thing I would

576
00:39:32,271 --> 00:39:36,691
say is someone Someone who really wants to make a change in their life and is

577
00:39:36,691 --> 00:39:42,611
committed to making a change is someone that I think is ready for working with a coach.

578
00:39:42,891 --> 00:39:45,271
Now, what kind of change?

579
00:39:45,671 --> 00:39:50,391
If they're ready to start authentically showing up as themselves with their disability,

580
00:39:50,711 --> 00:39:54,111
if they're ready to shed negative belief systems that have been holding them

581
00:39:54,111 --> 00:39:59,531
back, if they have really been struggling with heavy emotions around their disability

582
00:39:59,531 --> 00:40:02,831
and they don't know what to do with it or don't know know how to compartmentalize it.

583
00:40:02,911 --> 00:40:07,271
And it's making them show up in ways that are not as aligned with their desires,

584
00:40:07,511 --> 00:40:12,551
all those different types of things, or even more, I don't know how to say it,

585
00:40:12,571 --> 00:40:17,451
more like concrete things and less emotionally driven pieces where they want

586
00:40:17,451 --> 00:40:20,091
to integrate their disability into their line of work,

587
00:40:20,171 --> 00:40:22,951
but they don't know how, or they want to disclose their disability at work,

588
00:40:22,971 --> 00:40:26,671
or maybe they're going through a challenging situation in their work environment

589
00:40:26,671 --> 00:40:29,091
around their disability and they don't know how to navigate it.

590
00:40:29,131 --> 00:40:31,251
Those are all different pieces as as well.

591
00:40:32,361 --> 00:40:36,961
Could be a great fit for working with me. So where's the best place for people to find Charlie?

592
00:40:37,761 --> 00:40:43,001
Charliekramervision.com, I suspect? That is the website. You can also follow

593
00:40:43,001 --> 00:40:45,261
me on social media and come along for the ride there.

594
00:40:45,481 --> 00:40:49,761
And I always encourage people to send me a message on Instagram and just say,

595
00:40:49,841 --> 00:40:51,621
hey, and I respond to every message I get.

596
00:40:51,801 --> 00:40:54,821
And you got a great following on Instagram and got some great videos,

597
00:40:54,941 --> 00:40:57,221
man. You've gone viral. It's pretty awesome.

598
00:40:57,681 --> 00:41:01,141
Thank you. What's the coolest video you've done? done?

599
00:41:02,081 --> 00:41:07,981
Coolest one? I don't know. Coolest or one you got the most fun with, I guess, maybe.

600
00:41:08,441 --> 00:41:10,441
Yeah, yeah. I would say if you were going to say the most views,

601
00:41:10,561 --> 00:41:12,501
I would say that's not the coolest video I've done.

602
00:41:13,421 --> 00:41:17,061
The video with the most views is just me walking at Disneyland with my cane

603
00:41:17,061 --> 00:41:21,081
and everyone's getting out of the way. I don't think that's that cool. It's just my life.

604
00:41:21,541 --> 00:41:26,701
The one I've had the most fun with was showing people how I shop at a grocery store.

605
00:41:27,441 --> 00:41:31,441
It's just just really cool because I do it in such a different way, but I still do it.

606
00:41:31,941 --> 00:41:37,581
And it shows the balance between how I use my senses other than my eyesight,

607
00:41:37,761 --> 00:41:40,021
but also at different times, just use my eyesight.

608
00:41:40,341 --> 00:41:43,881
And I like how it confused people. They're like, how did he know the name of that cheese?

609
00:41:44,201 --> 00:41:47,701
And then I'm smelling the apples or touching the avocados to see if they're right.

610
00:41:47,901 --> 00:41:52,481
So it's a cool balance there. And I really, really had fun making that video. you.

611
00:41:52,861 --> 00:41:57,781
Making sight loss even more mysterious than it already is, I guess,

612
00:41:57,881 --> 00:41:59,861
in their mind or trying to explain it, I guess, rather.

613
00:42:00,321 --> 00:42:05,001
Yeah. Well, I actually like to say, let them be confused. You're allowed to be confused.

614
00:42:05,441 --> 00:42:08,441
Your confusion is none of my business. I'm just going to keep doing me.

615
00:42:08,681 --> 00:42:12,021
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Love it.

616
00:42:12,481 --> 00:42:16,981
All right. Well, Charlie, it's been a lot of fun and I'm glad we were able to do this.

617
00:42:17,001 --> 00:42:19,921
As I mentioned earlier, I think we're going to go out with Vision,

618
00:42:20,101 --> 00:42:21,461
which is just an awesome song.

619
00:42:21,601 --> 00:42:25,941
Tell me a little bit about the album and how the song came together.

620
00:42:26,621 --> 00:42:29,561
Yes. Well, thanks for playing it and thanks for having me.

621
00:42:29,661 --> 00:42:33,741
And the song is, it was actually done in a really cool way.

622
00:42:33,801 --> 00:42:37,821
I got in the studio and I only had the title of the song.

623
00:42:37,921 --> 00:42:42,001
It was the last song on the album. I just knew I wanted to create a song called Vision.

624
00:42:42,681 --> 00:42:47,301
And then three of us, my producer, Jeremy, my cousin, Zach, and I,

625
00:42:47,341 --> 00:42:52,781
we got in the studio, we had our guitars and we just blindfolded ourselves for three hours.

626
00:42:52,881 --> 00:42:55,961
Like we were in the singing in the dark and we wrote the song like that.

627
00:42:56,141 --> 00:42:59,841
And then we started recording it and we finished the recording the next day.

628
00:42:59,921 --> 00:43:01,961
So it was kind of unknown.

629
00:43:02,141 --> 00:43:03,601
It just, it was one of those moments

630
00:43:03,601 --> 00:43:06,241
where we just trusted years of musicianship and pulled it together.

631
00:43:06,441 --> 00:43:09,061
And it's one of my favorite songs that I've ever written too.

632
00:43:09,161 --> 00:43:12,141
So it was a really cool experience and just talks about how,

633
00:43:12,261 --> 00:43:16,421
you know, my journey with my, my blindness is something that has been both beautiful

634
00:43:16,421 --> 00:43:20,641
and challenging and that I don't let it define me, but at the same time, it also defines me.

635
00:43:20,880 --> 00:47:02,320
Music.

636
00:47:03,247 --> 00:47:06,487
Thanks so much for spending your time with the destiny is debatable podcast.

637
00:47:07,167 --> 00:47:11,267
Please rate and write a review wherever you subscribe. It really does help us

638
00:47:11,267 --> 00:47:12,487
grow and reach new people.

639
00:47:13,127 --> 00:47:16,567
For more information, visit john B. Grimes.com.

640
00:47:18,807 --> 00:47:21,407
Destiny is debatable is a symbol of production.

641
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:28,863
Music.